Hayes was a very successful stock trader on the New York stock exchange. He believed that the capacity to survive and to do well is an inherent inborn talent. He would argue he could be a survivor anywhere. I spent my life in the woods, hunting and fishing. I argue on the other hand that survival is more a function of learning certain behavioural tactics to get by, and that they are environmentally specific. And I said to Hayes 'If you come up to New Hampshire and went out in the woods with me, you wouldn't have a chance.'

A friend of mine sent me sent me a catalogue that had in it a pistol, and it shot a little ball of paint about this big round, and it was used by foresters to mark trees to be cut down and so forth. And I have one of those eureka moments. Two things come together. I called Hayes up, and said 'I've figured out how we are going to prove this argument one way or another.' So I ordered two of these guns, and a bunch of the pellets, and Hayes came up to my house. We decided we'd test these guns out because as far as we'd known, nobody had ever shot a person with them. Hayes shot first, and he missed, and I shout him right it in the butt. And it hurt! So then what we did, we went out into forty acres of woods and Hayes went in one end, I went in the other, and we hunted each other. Within about 20 minutes I came around a big maple tree, and Hayes was sitting on a rock, and I walked right up behind him, and put the barrel of the gun right on his neck, and said 'alright, I don't want to shoot you, who wins?!'


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